tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post8540178219466924305..comments2024-03-04T18:00:48.815+00:00Comments on More in Heaven and Earth: Populations of Middle Earth - Lord of the Rings Part 1Stephen Wigmorehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-57687109074276635992023-07-22T16:42:47.775+01:002023-07-22T16:42:47.775+01:00Ceorl,
You know in all these years I've neve...Ceorl, <br /><br />You know in all these years I've never properly noticed that, but you're right. I especially get the impression Dol Amroth at least would not have been so uninterested as to send only a tithe of its strength. I've actually adjusted the article to take a lower overall estimate of Gondor's forces into account. It doesn't change the conclusion dramatically, but it does bias the outcome more towards a figure around 1 million, rather than the 1-2 million I emphasised before. <br /><br />Thank you! I love receiving comments after years that still challenge me to improve these articles.Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-88545131876166859472023-07-17T15:49:35.522+01:002023-07-17T15:49:35.522+01:00With all due respect to a great article, everyone ...With all due respect to a great article, everyone seems to hang their hat on the word 'tithe' to extrapolate that the Outlands of Gondor could field at least 30,000 warriors.I believe the line in it's context refers only to Lossarnach, meaning Forlong could raise an army of around 2000 warriors.The rest are described only as sending 'less than hope looked for, or need asked', in a seperate passage. The figure of a tenth of the potential strength available to Gondor arriving in Minas Tirith that day is unreliable, to say the least. Ceorlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-53678620529723448412023-03-04T05:50:48.322+00:002023-03-04T05:50:48.322+00:00Firstly, thanks for this post Stephen. Great to se...Firstly, thanks for this post Stephen. Great to see you and all these other fellows sharing my mild obsession with populations and army sizes in fantasy worlds. Of course Tolkien’s legendary world building is that of a linguist and student of mythology not a demographer or geographer so we have to allow for logical challenges but is fun to try to make his words fit into a plausible world. My two bobs on Rohan. I’ve always thought Tolkien’s Rohirrim were a mashup of nomadic horsemen herders (militarily) and Saxon/Nordic (art and culture). Plenty of hints that they are/were a tribal, warrior led horse culture transforming to more sedentary medieval society. I think 90% of Riders are citizen militia cavalry from society where social status is attached to periodic military service so there may be a sizable non-fighting serf/peasant/farmer class maybe 30-50% and artisan class 10% but also large class of farmer/graziers who owe some (mounted)military service (30-40%) and a small permanent fighting class of soldiers and nobles. Military losses to Saruman end up pretty mild thanks to Ents and Huorns and Theoden basically says he’s bringing 6000 and leaving 4000 behind so a figure of 9-10k riders /fighters after losses to Saruman seems clear. I don’t feel the Western European knights to peasants or to militia ratio should apply. Citizen militia cavalry might constitute up a third of all able adult male population. Historical parallels exist with cultures that used to offer military service to Rome and Byzantium - often specialist troops sometimes cavalry. Rohirrim can fight afoot, as some do at the Black Gate, but Rohirrim fields cavalry armies. So in terms of population I would posit able adult male population of 30,000, total male pop 60000 and total population of 120,000. This makes lower figures for bigger than Rohan Gondor feasible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-510060583973824632023-02-23T10:27:51.236+00:002023-02-23T10:27:51.236+00:00That's an intriguing comparison. I don't k...That's an intriguing comparison. I don't know enough about Maori society to comment on how close the analogy, but my understanding would be the Maori were a far more tribal, albeit settled, population than the kind of mediaeval peasant society described for Rohan.<br /><br />I still think a society like Anglo-Saxon England would be the closest comparison and its worth remembering the mobilisation rate I'm suggesting is still far higher than the historical norm in such societies and the population density I'm suggesting is below that which existed in medieval societies, and far below modern levels.Stephen Wigmorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-11146166162010457892023-02-21T17:58:09.832+00:002023-02-21T17:58:09.832+00:00While I agree with the population estimate for Gon...While I agree with the population estimate for Gondor (given its parallels to Byzantium), I'm not so sure about those for Rohan. The 400,000 estimate seems way too high. Let us consider that when Aragorn et al., entered Rohan from Rauros, they found the eastern part of that land almost completely depopulated. We soon discover that Eomer had ordered the entire region's population to decamp. This suggests a much smaller population than one in the many hundreds of thousands. So I would draw a parallel with New Zealand history, specifically that period known as the Musket Wars - for which, see R.D. Crosby (1999). The Musket Wars. A History of Inter-Iwi Conflict (1806-1845). There, Maori warbands of 1000-3000 were extremely frequent across as many as five campaigns at once, some warbands from some combined regions numbering as high as 10,000. All this was from a total population of only 100,000 across the entire country. Considering these warband numbers are similar to the Rohan figures, I think we can revise the Rohan total population down to something closer to the New Zealand number. (I'd also do something similar for the Silmarillion figures.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-84536666059656292042020-05-26T17:53:10.521+01:002020-05-26T17:53:10.521+01:00Russia, 16 century.
Normal: One rider from land a...Russia, 16 century. <br />Normal: One rider from land allotment sizing 150 "десятин" (approx 2.25 acres each, 350 all) of good arable land. One farmer with one working horse have approx. 4-6 "десятин" (10-15 acres). It mean 20 peasant to 1 rider.<br />Sometimes rider have less land, 75, or 100, but there were complaints from commanders about the quality of horses and equipment of that riders. It mean 10-15 peasant to 1 rider.<br />Novgorod Republic, 15th century. the unit of calculation was the "соха" (plough), that considered as land may be cultivated by three man with three working horses. I think that mean approx 40-45 acres.<br />In normal military expedition was taken 1 rider from 10 "plough". (30 peasant to 1 rider)<br />In case of a treaty to republic, 1 rider from 4 "plough". It mean 12 peasant to 1 rider.<br />May be Russia is too cold country to compare with Rohan or Gondor, but i read somewhere that Byzantium "Strateia" (Land allotment of byzantium warrior) need 30 peasant for heavy-armed rider, or half of it to lightly-armed.<br /><br />Сonclusion: If Rohan have more then 12000 riders, it need be OR very large state, with population near 1 million (The calculation is then 12000 x 15-20 for adult males and x 4 for women and children = 720000 - 960000);<br />OR. It should not be an agricultural country, but a nomadic one. Панhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11590904629707705181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-26654117241418986942020-05-20T12:56:09.277+01:002020-05-20T12:56:09.277+01:00Thanks for this great post, i find it very interes...Thanks for this great post, i find it very interesting and very well thought out and put together. I look forward to reading your work in the future. <a href="https://gemsandjewelsforless.com/blogs/birthstones/june-birthstones" rel="nofollow">june birthstones</a><br /><br />Ahmedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12216592528982550995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-58205479137419136772019-09-22T03:31:08.075+01:002019-09-22T03:31:08.075+01:00To anonymous: Rohan had 2 and 1/4 million people a...To anonymous: Rohan had 2 and 1/4 million people and they were almost smashed by 30 000 uruk hai? Well, that would be even worse than in dark medieval times... Such nation should be able to bring at least 20 000 pro warriors into a critical battle, not a few hundred pros and a few thousand armed paesants. <br />Also Gondor having 7 and half million citizens would mean that even with its economical problems it should be able to bring at least 50 000 well armed and trained soldiers into such critical battle as a siege of capital city.<br />P.S. In real history, big cities of the first millennia (in Europe) usually had less than 100k population. That would (by a very rough comparsion) mean that there are at least 7 such huge cities in Gondor and at least 2 in Rohan. That doesnt seem very probable. Even if we dont count the P. Jackson´s visualization of Edoras as canon, I still dont think that it had more than lets say 20 000 inhabitants (in P. Jackson´s LotR it looked like a small village with less than 5 000 inhabitants). Such country is not expected to have over 1 million population. <br />Just imagine being Sauron, having at best 150 000 evil creatures as warriors and 100k-200k slaves that are useless for combat and are just making food and weapons, and looking at a huge empire with over 7 million population. Even in the films, Gondor+Rohan alliance was not that far from beating Sauron in the battle, if they brough all reserves to black gate, they would most likely beat his last army. And if Gondor really had over 7 million population (resulting in over 70 000 professional combatants), they would almost steamroll him. <br />My expectations would be about 5-10% lower than Stephen Wigmore´s, as there is a difference between IRL war preparations against other human army of a neighbor nation and a war preparations against almost pure evil right at doorstep.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-63615716784865204272019-04-19T03:51:48.209+01:002019-04-19T03:51:48.209+01:00Great stuff man.Great stuff man.Jvdawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331158909324691618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-41873419390622216052019-01-26T22:30:53.264+00:002019-01-26T22:30:53.264+00:00My brother suggested I might like this website.
H...My brother suggested I might like this website.<br /><br />He was totally right. This post truly made my day.<br />You can not imagine simply how much time I <br />had spent for this info! Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-37718489379534947712019-01-04T13:41:50.738+00:002019-01-04T13:41:50.738+00:00Hello, I enjoy reading all of your article. I want...Hello, I enjoy reading all of your article. I wanted to <br />write a little comment to support you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-50982168375316320582018-02-23T21:10:14.682+00:002018-02-23T21:10:14.682+00:00Interesting. Would be fascinating to hear what yo...Interesting. Would be fascinating to hear what your calculations are? Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-54437147125009466812018-02-23T20:49:43.620+00:002018-02-23T20:49:43.620+00:00I did the math regarding the population of Rohan, ...I did the math regarding the population of Rohan, and came to 2,280,000. And for Gondor, I came to 7,410,000. Although still an interesting article, and quite helpful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-35952918905179400782017-09-04T01:58:20.333+01:002017-09-04T01:58:20.333+01:00what the casualties of gondor by the time siege of...what the casualties of gondor by the time siege of minas tirith in percents of military soldiers from total available from start of war of rings Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01125290949004796751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-86433933565665114252017-09-03T18:10:14.695+01:002017-09-03T18:10:14.695+01:00I would need a whole other article to answer that ...I would need a whole other article to answer that second question. The information for the second age is much more sparse and we could only give really quite loose estimates. Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-23635153800598562052017-09-03T18:09:22.610+01:002017-09-03T18:09:22.610+01:00Tolkien describes the levies of Gondor arriving at...Tolkien describes the levies of Gondor arriving at Minas Tirith in the Return of the King. This is described as a 'tithe' of their full strength, so you could take the numbers given arriving at Minas Tirith and x 10 to get sensible estimates. <br /><br />I think we can assume that the Prince of Dol Amroth probably brought more than 1/10th of his strength, but some of the wilder, more distant regions sent less. But either way you can get rough estimates. Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-49125634564968589082017-09-02T23:22:28.317+01:002017-09-02T23:22:28.317+01:00How many soldiers/population does Gondor and arno...How many soldiers/population does Gondor and arnor have second age at peak?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01125290949004796751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-21703053117259663622017-09-02T23:16:27.600+01:002017-09-02T23:16:27.600+01:00How many soldiers does each area of gondor have at...How many soldiers does each area of gondor have at start of war of the ring?i was thinking of game of thrones when I posted question sorry:(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-15664388855793037002017-08-29T21:59:37.688+01:002017-08-29T21:59:37.688+01:00Bless you. I think you may be confusing Lord of th...Bless you. I think you may be confusing Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones. Do you mean either:<br /><br />How many soldiers does each area of Gondor have at start of War of the Ring?<br />or<br />How many soldiers does each area of Westeros have at start of War of the Five Kings?<br /><br /><br /><br />Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-21376729293605071812017-08-27T05:00:28.730+01:002017-08-27T05:00:28.730+01:00how many soldiers does each area of gondor have at...how many soldiers does each area of gondor have at start of War of the Five Kings?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01125290949004796751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-88144687380562113712017-06-28T14:00:11.292+01:002017-06-28T14:00:11.292+01:00Barrabad,
I would think that Minas Tirith would ...Barrabad, <br /><br />I would think that Minas Tirith would be supported both by local produce and imports in the initial period after the war. We must remember that the city had a much smaller population during the actual war, it had been in decline for centuries and most of the women and children had been evacuated. These would not have returned until food supplies and other lines of supply for essentials had been secured. You can perhaps imagine people steadily moving back to the city and the population growing over the years after the King returned, but in the immediate aftermath there would have been relatively few people and a lot to be done to pick up the pieces, with imports from the southern fiefs making up a lot of the difference. Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-12166632244854127432017-06-25T21:47:25.459+01:002017-06-25T21:47:25.459+01:00What the biggest/strongest fortress or cities of m...What the biggest/strongest fortress or cities of me or dwarf in Lord of rings in population or defending against attackalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470275139672988507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-77464511003401801462017-05-17T18:43:45.221+01:002017-05-17T18:43:45.221+01:00Your post has been very helpful; thank you! I was ...Your post has been very helpful; thank you! I was looking for the population of Minas Tirith because in a fanfic novel I'm writing, I mention a farm in the Pelennor Fields and their difficulties in rebuilding it after the battle and the end of the WR. What I'm wondering is if it was possible immediately before and during the WR for the farmers there to sustain the city with their meat, poultry, crops and produce as well as themselves. After all, I imagine that imports were down during that time, not only foreign, but also from the more southern provinces and Anorien, who were hard-pressed by orcs, and nothing would be coming from Ithilien but trouble. Barrabardhttp://www.barrabard.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-77392600825898901022017-03-26T17:43:44.002+01:002017-03-26T17:43:44.002+01:00The figures for Gondor's soldiery are derived ...The figures for Gondor's soldiery are derived directly from the books. The levies at Minas Tirith were "a tithe" of the strength of the provinces, plus the troops at Minas Tirith and the Ithilien rangers themselves. If Gondor had 100,000 troops where were they? <br /><br />As I say in the article Gondor's armed situation was comparable to the Byzantine or Roman situation, and those were societies that were also at near constant war against one barbarian horde or another. It is made quite clear by Tolkien that the constant warfare had worn Gondor down as well. At its height Gondor's forces would certainly have been perhaps as high as 100,000.Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-63467272965677937742017-02-13T07:00:01.402+00:002017-02-13T07:00:01.402+00:00But wouldnt the constant warfare against mordor me...But wouldnt the constant warfare against mordor mean that they would have more men at the ready. Since the brits hadnt fought a war spanning centuries when Hastings happened, i would think that they would have less men ready and equipped to fight but for gondor the orcs have been roaming around for a long while. Wouldnt the rulers ensure they have a deeper pool of manpower by investing more in militia? That is just pure guesswork by me but i tink it makes sense.vallohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14023382723402875368noreply@blogger.com