tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post3204501265535221798..comments2024-03-04T18:00:48.815+00:00Comments on More in Heaven and Earth: Populations of Middle Earth in the First Age - Part 2: Men, Dwarves, Ents & OrcsStephen Wigmorehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-10066125404628453322020-02-19T22:48:43.544+00:002020-02-19T22:48:43.544+00:00Taking the Army of Gondolin as a rough starting po...Taking the Army of Gondolin as a rough starting point it seems likely that at just before the Dagor Bragollach the combined armed strength of the Elves and Men engaged in the war against Angband (basically all minus Doriath) would have numbered around 100,000 (assuming Gondolin had the same proportion of the Eldar and Edain's warriors as it did population).<br /><br />Its kinda impossible for the noldor to have only 100k before dagor bragollach, you cant siege Angband with such low number, angband was MASSIVE... :PArtakanonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-31853834684707997672020-02-19T22:43:34.288+00:002020-02-19T22:43:34.288+00:00" Taking the Army of Gondolin as a rough star..." Taking the Army of Gondolin as a rough starting point it seems likely that at just before the Dagor Bragollach the combined armed strength of the Elves and Men engaged in the war against Angband (basically all minus Doriath) would have numbered around 100,000 (assuming Gondolin had the same proportion of the Eldar and Edain's warriors as it did population)."<br /><br /><br />You calculated that the Noldorin population in Beleriand was 300k before Bragollach, and and the combined noldorin forces were around 100k, the other 2/3 were either children, or women etc... I dont really think they took their women with them, they were going to their own death and they knew it, it would make no sense if they took their wives with them...<br /><br />Kinda very late comment but hey! :DArtakanonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-27905993692127478942016-12-16T21:41:08.662+00:002016-12-16T21:41:08.662+00:00We are given no information at all about the awake...We are given no information at all about the awakening population of Men. It would have to have been of about the scale you describe. Tolkien never set down any coherent account of the early wakening of Men, it always happens 'off screen', though you later have the reported tale that was included in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. A lot of what he wrote, especially in the later period, would seem to suggest that Men must've awoke earlier than the rising of the Sun, something he hinted at in his later thoughts on the nature of Middle Earth, described in the HoME book 'Morgoth's Ring', but this was never converted into a coherent story. <br /><br />The incongruities come in the description of the awakening of Men being in the 'ancient past', 'years uncounted', etc, of the Edain, in the spread of Men across the world so quickly, and had differentiated into Edain and Easterlings, including the statement that Druedain entered Eriador before the Edain. That the tribes of the Edain in Beleriand were just part of a much larger people, many of whom ended up in Eriador, but that these themselves were only a small part of the people of Men that rejected the worship of Melkor, etc. There just doesn't seem enough time and opportunity for this development and diversity of Men if they started from a small number in the east of Middle Earth only 300 years before. Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-3727653388631106892016-11-29T16:58:20.664+00:002016-11-29T16:58:20.664+00:00(I am anonymous since I can't be bothered to s...(I am anonymous since I can't be bothered to sign up :D)<br /><br />How many men woke up originally ? If the Edain numbered 33 000 in FA 300 and we assume a 1% population growth each year (which is apparently not unusual for a growing hunter-gatherer population according to a an article I read once) the ancestors of the Edain numbered at roughly 1700 in 1 FA. This does not include Middle men, Easterlings and Haradrim. If we assume the Edain made up 25-50% of human populations, we get a waking population of ca 3600-7200.<br /><br />I had in my mind the figure 500 men, are we somewhere given the awoken population of men as with the elves ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-15406033305227434252016-08-31T22:43:43.756+01:002016-08-31T22:43:43.756+01:00I support your reasoning. The other thing that mak...I support your reasoning. The other thing that makes me think of them as smaller is that they lived scattered apart from one another, so that even if their numbers equaled the Beorians, their population density was much lower.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317013903342919271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-74432946786535710182016-08-15T12:02:03.913+01:002016-08-15T12:02:03.913+01:00Thanks for your comment. I have deducted 1/3 of th...Thanks for your comment. I have deducted 1/3 of the Haladin to adjust for losses taken in the orc raid. It is possible losses were considerably greater than this, maybe 1/2 or even more, but it is complicated by not having any concrete figures for their initial population. <br /><br />I think the figure I suggest is reasonable, it does just seem that Tolkien envisaged both the Beorians and the Haladin as small populations. The Marachians alone accounted for over half of the Mannish population. <br /><br />What figure would you think appropriate? Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-29942061448141143022016-08-13T19:37:00.215+01:002016-08-13T19:37:00.215+01:00Really enjoyed this one too (and sorry I didn'...Really enjoyed this one too (and sorry I didn't stumble on this earlier). My only question would be about the Haladin. I think of their population as smaller (and obviously less concentrated). They suffered losses not only during the Orc attack in Thargelion but also when crossing through Nan Dungortheb on the way to Brethil. Plus the people were divided between Edain and Druedain. Hope you keep posting!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317013903342919271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-14469315046045015512015-01-27T13:39:04.403+00:002015-01-27T13:39:04.403+00:00I'm not quite sure what you mean. But the gro...I'm not quite sure what you mean. But the growth rates I use are taken from real world examples of rapidly developing countries, so not that speculative. We must remember that although Men die a lot faster than Elves or Dwarves they also have children much, much faster. So in times of peace and plenty, and especially times of dramatic increase in 'technology' they would increase rapidly.Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-72808276149554115792015-01-05T15:14:36.810+00:002015-01-05T15:14:36.810+00:00The only issue with the human population is, that ...The only issue with the human population is, that unlike other races at that time, they would be very dependent on multiplying because of their short lifespan (30 - 40 years?), so it is easy to assume that their population didn't grow as fast as one can assume.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-30726163947192005192013-04-20T23:41:02.628+01:002013-04-20T23:41:02.628+01:00I have nothing to disagree about humans well done!...I have nothing to disagree about humans well done!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13328790646161380889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-76960577720496454722013-03-25T18:42:31.915+00:002013-03-25T18:42:31.915+00:00I mean humans at that point. My apologies, my use...I mean humans at that point. My apologies, my use of terminology is confusion. This stems from Tolkien never referring to humans but always 'the race of men' (in the traditional gender neutral sense). I've edited the article to hopefully make it clearer what I mean at that point.Stephen Wigmorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15604582974059809054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7389997189655525246.post-1113836847780434632013-03-25T16:05:01.454+00:002013-03-25T16:05:01.454+00:00When you say
"25,000 men in Dorthonion, abou...When you say <br />"25,000 men in Dorthonion, about 75,000 men in Dor-Lomin and about 25,000 in Brethil." <br />Do you mean men as in Humans, or men as in Males?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com